I know all of you are aching to discuss the text in more detail. Since we just don't have enough time in class, you now have a chance to continue this discussion at home. Make sure to post and reply to your assigned group.
Friday, March 12, 2010
Group 4
4) Catherine is more a victim than a perpetrator of the love triangle between Edgar, Heathcliff, and herself.
Posts are due by Monday before class and reply by Wednesday before class.
I believe this statement to be false. Catherine may find herself in an unwanted situation, but it is really her own doing. She toys with the affections of both Heathcliff and Edgar Linton. She pretends to like Edgar, while in reality her true love is with her childhood friend Heathcliff. After a quarrel with the both of them and her acceptance of Edgar's marriage proposal, she admits this idea to Nelly. " It would degrade me to marry Heathcliff now; so he shall never know how I love him; and that, not because he’s handsome, Nelly, but because he’s more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same, and [Edgar’s] is as different as a moonbeam from lightning, or frost from fire." She is not the victim because of her acknowlegement of her greedy outlook on life. She doesn't want to marry Heathcliff because it will not only degrade her appearance, but also because she can not have a happy (rich) life with him. Because she is selfish in her actions, she brings the complex struggle upon herself.
This statement is definitely false. Catherine is the one who causes the whole mess between Heathcliff, Edgar, and herself. Her split personalities throughout the novel cause much confusion for Heathcliff and Edgar. Catherine’s two faces even cause Heathcliff to vow revenge because he feels he was wronged. Whether or not she intended to hurt him doesn’t matter since she is directly responsible for leading him on and then marrying Edgar. Nelly foresees this and asks Catherine, “Have you considered how you'll bear the separation, and how he'll bear to be quite deserted in the world?" Catherine is clearly warned and seems to disregard this information. She is completely at fault in this situation and is definitely not the victim. Catherine makes a decision to marry Edgar and throw away her love for Heathcliff and must live with the consequences especially because she had been told that Heathcliff’s vengeance filled anger would probably be the result.
Revenge as a tool is a weapon of selfish gains that is used to satisfy ones own anger. It may be acceptable socially only if it is carried out within the social limits but commonly isn't. Though revenge does give some degree of mental satisfaction it may lead to serious consequences if it is allowed to become more ambitiously sought then necessary. It often becomes a obcession that can land one in jail if not an early grave. In all it is only worth it if it can be carried out in proper course by following the social obligations and restrictions of the law and order.
I believe that there are some moments where Catherine is a victim of the love triangle however these are very few. She enters a very dramatic conversation with Heathcliff that she had her heart broken by both Heathcliff and Edgar," I shall not be at peace, ' moaned Catherine, recalled to a sense of physical weakness by the violent,unequal throbbing of her heart, which beat visibly and audibly under this excess on agitation" (150-151).Even though this is a short moment, she is in no doubt experiencing some moment of psychological pain.
Catherine is by no means the victom of this "love triangle," yet her actions are not nessasarily as wicked as Nelly and Heathcliff accuse her of. It can be interpreted that she lead Heathcliff on, yet in reality she never implied that they would be more than friends. If her decision to marry Edgar devistated Heathcliff to the point of unredemption, then that is on him. Chatherine's choice to marry a man whome she does not love causes her much pain, but that is her choice and she is only wronging herself. she says; "Every Linton on the face of the earth could melt into nothing before i could consent to forsake Heathcliff." she is aware that she will never be truly happy with Edgar and so her choice punishes her more than anyone. She also attempts to justify her decision with the fact that "If Heathcliff and I married, we would be beggers...and help Heathcliff to rise." Any rational person would be concerned for their finantial situation and ability to survive.
Well I do agree with all of you that Catherine is a manipulating and selfish individual that creates havok on both Heathcliff and Edgar. Also wanting to add something to my previous post,I belive that I have incorrectly understood the qoute, I now think that this "pain" that she is suffering is due to the fact that she has been caught and is unable to get out of a hard situation, thus she acts in this way.
I do agree with Ray's description of revenge, but I also think that revenge is acceptable to an extent. I'm not sure whether he does or not, but I believe that revenge is part of human nature and is understandable in most situations. I think that it can even be the right thing to do in some situations, depending on how badly someone has wronged you. Specifically in the text, Catherine hurts Heathcliff more than she will ever know. When feeling sorry for herself she says to Heathcliff, “You and Edgar have broken my heart, Heathcliff! And you both come to bewail the deed to me, as if you were the people to be pitied! I shall not pity you, not I” (145). She is extremely selfish and clearly doesn’t realize that it’s the opposite way around: she is the cause of pain and they are the victims. Trying to go back and say she loves him because he has developed himself into an aristocratic character is just selfish of her. In my mind she is so two-faced and backstabbing, that Heathcliff, and even Edgar should have every right to take revenge. Now, the type of action of revenge is another matter, because going over the top can be sometimes making revenge unjustified if its magnitude overleaps that of the first cruel act.
I believe this statement to be false. Catherine may find herself in an unwanted situation, but it is really her own doing. She toys with the affections of both Heathcliff and Edgar Linton. She pretends to like Edgar, while in reality her true love is with her childhood friend Heathcliff. After a quarrel with the both of them and her acceptance of Edgar's marriage proposal, she admits this idea to Nelly. " It would degrade me to marry Heathcliff now; so he shall never know how I love him; and that, not because he’s handsome, Nelly, but because he’s more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same, and [Edgar’s] is as different as a moonbeam from lightning, or frost from fire." She is not the victim because of her acknowlegement of her greedy outlook on life. She doesn't want to marry Heathcliff because it will not only degrade her appearance, but also because she can not have a happy (rich) life with him. Because she is selfish in her actions, she brings the complex struggle upon herself.
ReplyDeleteThis statement is definitely false. Catherine is the one who causes the whole mess between Heathcliff, Edgar, and herself. Her split personalities throughout the novel cause much confusion for Heathcliff and Edgar. Catherine’s two faces even cause Heathcliff to vow revenge because he feels he was wronged. Whether or not she intended to hurt him doesn’t matter since she is directly responsible for leading him on and then marrying Edgar. Nelly foresees this and asks Catherine, “Have you considered how you'll bear the separation, and how he'll bear to be quite deserted in the world?" Catherine is clearly warned and seems to disregard this information. She is completely at fault in this situation and is definitely not the victim. Catherine makes a decision to marry Edgar and throw away her love for Heathcliff and must live with the consequences especially because she had been told that Heathcliff’s vengeance filled anger would probably be the result.
ReplyDeleteRevenge as a tool is a weapon of selfish gains that is used to satisfy ones own anger. It may be acceptable socially only if it is carried out within the social limits but commonly isn't. Though revenge does give some degree of mental satisfaction it may lead to serious consequences if it is allowed to become more ambitiously sought then necessary. It often becomes a obcession that can land one in jail if not an early grave. In all it is only worth it if it can be carried out in proper course by following the social obligations and restrictions of the law and order.
ReplyDeleteI believe that there are some moments where Catherine is a victim of the love triangle however these are very few. She enters a very dramatic conversation with Heathcliff that she had her heart broken by both Heathcliff and Edgar," I shall not be at peace, ' moaned Catherine, recalled to a sense of physical weakness by the violent,unequal throbbing of her heart, which beat visibly and audibly under this excess on agitation" (150-151).Even though this is a short moment, she is in no doubt experiencing some moment of psychological pain.
ReplyDeleteCatherine is by no means the victom of this "love triangle," yet her actions are not nessasarily as wicked as Nelly and Heathcliff accuse her of. It can be interpreted that she lead Heathcliff on, yet in reality she never implied that they would be more than friends. If her decision to marry Edgar devistated Heathcliff to the point of unredemption, then that is on him. Chatherine's choice to marry a man whome she does not love causes her much pain, but that is her choice and she is only wronging herself. she says; "Every Linton on the face of the earth could melt into nothing before i could consent to forsake Heathcliff." she is aware that she will never be truly happy with Edgar and so her choice punishes her more than anyone. She also attempts to justify her decision with the fact that "If Heathcliff and I married, we would be beggers...and help Heathcliff to rise." Any rational person would be concerned for their finantial situation and ability to survive.
ReplyDeleteWell I do agree with all of you that Catherine is a manipulating and selfish individual that creates havok on both Heathcliff and Edgar. Also wanting to add something to my previous post,I belive that I have incorrectly understood the qoute, I now think that this "pain" that she is suffering is due to the fact that she has been caught and is unable to get out of a hard situation, thus she acts in this way.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Ray's description of revenge, but I also think that revenge is acceptable to an extent. I'm not sure whether he does or not, but I believe that revenge is part of human nature and is understandable in most situations. I think that it can even be the right thing to do in some situations, depending on how badly someone has wronged you. Specifically in the text, Catherine hurts Heathcliff more than she will ever know. When feeling sorry for herself she says to Heathcliff, “You and Edgar have broken my heart, Heathcliff! And you both come to bewail the deed to me, as if you were the people to be pitied! I shall not pity you, not I” (145). She is extremely selfish and clearly doesn’t realize that it’s the opposite way around: she is the cause of pain and they are the victims. Trying to go back and say she loves him because he has developed himself into an aristocratic character is just selfish of her. In my mind she is so two-faced and backstabbing, that Heathcliff, and even Edgar should have every right to take revenge. Now, the type of action of revenge is another matter, because going over the top can be sometimes making revenge unjustified if its magnitude overleaps that of the first cruel act.
ReplyDelete